There is plenty of evidence for Hamas' responsibility for this tragedy, there is no doubt. As soon as it happened however, they jumped on the propaganda machine and blamed Israel, and the mainstream media bought it. That's the world we live in.
The corporate media's ravenous appetite to condemn anything Israeli/Jew blunts my ability to believe that the media serves anything useful. Trump was right again, the media is the enemy of the people, especially the Jews.
What do you do with 2M genocidal people? Their Arab neighbors can't afford to take them in.
Egypt would fall to the Muslim Brotherhood. Saudia Arabia could, but they won't. Libya is a failed state already. Jordan faced a Palestinian coup attempt 30 years ago. Syria is also a failed state. Lebanon's broke, and 2M new Muslims would swamp its delicate political balancing act.
So what do you do with 2M genocidal people? Real question.
This question relates to what happened to the Arab spring - the entire region of Arab states is not democratic and wants to keep it that way by fomenting the genocidal culture endlessly as an ongoing industry to keep that the focus rather than how the Arab states fail their own people. They quashed the Arab spring and seek to keep this conflict going forever is the truth. Why would Egypt's president ask Egyptians to go on a "day of rage" for example? What normal government does that? It is a criminal one that exhorts people in that manner. So the question is broader - what to do with millions more not just Gazans but Arabs in all non-democratic countries who will continue to remain a threat to Israel and the world (even though antisemites do not admit that).
One that's not rooted in our tradition of Judeo-Christian, Enlightenment moral norms. And most of the people on the planet are not. Ideas have consequences.
Which is why democracy isn't the answer. Hold a 100% fair election in Egypt tomorrow and the Muslim Brotherhood would sweep the Egyptian Parliament. What you really mean is that you want Western style liberalism in a place that has no philosophical tradition that can bring it about. We tried that theory under George W Bush and got the Arab Spring.
So wat do you do? Wall off the genocidal part of the world and let it kill itself? Israel tried that with the Iron Dome and the Wall. Doesn't work. Kill everyone who wants you dead? That's the option they're pursuing now, and as much as I hate to say it, it's hard to find an alternative.
How do you win? Defeat your enemy. Drive him off his land. Kill anyone who remains. And screw what happens to the rest. It sounds cold, but this is literally War 101. The desert Muslims know this. We have forgotten it or are unwilling to face it.
I would take your stance further to include elements in western society that reject enlightened moral norms as we can see such throngs of people protesting in the streets of western jurisdictions - basically antisemites. So many segments of humanity all over the world are not democratic, are antisemitic, and maintain a theocratic murderous bent that many purport we need to "work with". But that is impossible - it is like arguing with a crazy person - there is no rationality or truth only dogma and lies. Hence Israel and other western countries that institutionally wish to sustain enlightened norms irrespective of segments within societies rejecting them, must be hyper vigilant and not accept those who are not enlightened in the name of free expression - there is no freedom to express hate and exhort to commit murder. We do need to defend enlightenment by acting decisively to exterminate haters as much as possible since they are attacking non-antisemitic and enlightened segments of society ruthlessly and murderously - without crushing it in defence will lead to the destruction normal humanity. There needs to be an express admission that there is an actual dangerous enemy among us and around us interested in maintaining base hate, violence and corruption in the name of political power and at the expense of humanity. This is the dynamic in the Arab world (among others) that is never transparently laid out.
Do Western countries actually want to uphold Enlightenment ideas? I'm honestly not sure I do. Don't get me wrong, while my preference is for a broadly tolerant, liberal society built on Judeo-Christian philosophy, I believe Patrick Deneen (Why Liberalism Failed) is right. The value-neutral, secular state posited by Locke and Mill and Rawls seeds its own destruction by preventing to collective transmission or acknowledgement of any form of shared cultural values. Western, Enlightenment liberal society only appeared stable because of 1700 years of shared Christian cultural inertia, which we've now run down.
I don't know the answer, but I do think RR Reno is correct: the world of "strong gods" is returning. Either we will find collective values that we are willing to defend with religious conviction, or we will be conquered by those who do. Unfortunately, I suspect theocracy in some form is the only truly stable governmental system. The neutral, liberal state was always an illusion. I don't like that. But my preferences don't change its veracity.
I think this hypothesis needs some correction - it is not true there is prevention of transmission of shared cultural values in western society, to the contrary we embrace the freedom to do so pursuant to the individual's conscience, not enforced by religious police where there is supposed transmission of religious/cultural homogeneity - it is a falsehood. That is the beauty of the secular state that upholds religious/cultural personal freedom. Everyone knows that is the way human rights are upheld, not through coerced cultural uniformity. That is why we cherish diversity. Whose G-d is it that will prevail per your view? It is a pathetic situation where we succumb to someone's G-d by force. We need to uphold our secular humanist values and allow people to choose for themselves their faith provided they practice respectfully without spewing hate towards those whose practice is different or do not practice any faith.
This is too far to the right (on the screen, not politically) to get into a serious discussion of this. I suggest highly that you read Deneen's book Why Liberalism Failed. Don't read Regime Change; the first book is better.
Short form: "shared cultural values" are impossible in any society that holds up "individual conscience" as its highest good. If the right each individual to do as he desires (absent hurting someone else) is the highest good, all other cultural values and moral norms must take second place. And that means they must fall, since any other moral norm could conflict with my (or someone else's) right of personal autonomy and conscience. That's condensing the entire book into 1 paragraph though.
As I said, I don't like this conclusion, but I don't see any way around it.
Sorry but I still do not think you are getting it right, despite the author's argument, there is nothing to cause religious plurality to fail in a secular state. That is because we are tolerant of other faiths and non-believers. That is diversity and that is strength. I do not know where you have been for the last while but diversity is a quite valued in western societies. It is the enforced homogeneous states that have massive problems keeping themselves together because they are non-free thinking police states which is the only way to keep that facade of perfect harmony going. You require massive repression of populations to maintain the illusion.
There is a paradox of diversity which mirrors the paradox of tolerance. How can a society survive in the face of an intolerant ideology with a fanatical drive to conquer? It can only work when all parties agree to live and let live, no matter how profound the disagreement, as happened following the Peace of Westphalia which ended the brutal religious wars which tore Europe apart in the 17th century. The Communists and the Nazis had no respect for such an ethos of toleration, and neither does Islam.
Obama, Dershowitz's hero, has now written a lengthy missive on the current situation, since we know how great he handled things so we need to listen to him as Dershowitz does. Obama included pearls of wisdom such as:
“Even as we support Israel, we should also be clear that how Israel prosecutes this fight against Hamas matters. In particular, it matters — as President Biden has repeatedly emphasized — that Israel’s military strategy abides by international law, including those laws that seek to avoid, to every extent possible, the death or suffering of civilian populations.”
“The Israeli government’s decision to cut off food, water and electricity to a captive civilian population (in Gaza) threatens not only to worsen a growing humanitarian crisis; it could further harden Palestinian attitudes for generations, erode global support for Israel, play into the hands of Israel’s enemies, and undermine long-term efforts to achieve peace and stability in the region.”
Thank G-d for Obama - where would Israel and Dershowitz be without him. I just wonder why Hamas is not held to the same standard? I guess I do not have the intelligence to understand the deep thinking here. Maybe Dershowitz can shed some light on that and how Hamas's actions against Israelis should not similarly harden Israeli and Jewish opinion. But Dershowitz will remain silent.
Where is Dershowitz's favourite Barak Obama on this list? Nowhere to be found. Dershowitz voted for him and continues to be happy with his decision the first time he voted for him. Shame for helping create this monster.
Israel ישראל 🇮🇱 reposted
Israel Foreign Ministry
@IsraelMFA
86 Nobel laureates have taken a stand, submitting a heartfelt petition addressed to the
@UN
Secretary-General
@antonioguterres
and, by extension, leaders of nations across the globe. This petition conveys a profound moral imperative: the immediate release of the kidnapped children in Gaza.
The laureates express a poignant message: “Throughout the annals of human history, wars have unfolded, but humanity has consistently drawn the line between acts of war and war crimes. No war should ever condone mass atrocities. No war normalize acts of rape and torture. Never will war permit the captivity of innocent young children in the throes of hellish confinement.”
Adding to their voice, they emphasize, “during the attack, Hamas kidnapped hundreds of Israeli soldiers and
civilians, including children aged between 6 months and 18 years. Children should never
be regarded as pawns in the theater of war.”
The Nobel laureates are united in their moral demand for the immediate release of these kidnapped children. They assert, “The soul of a child differs from that of an adult. It is our sacred duty to protect the innocent and shield the vulnerable. It is our sacred duty to save our children. The distressing images and words we witness today evoke memories of darker times, times that we, humanity as a collective, had hoped to leave behind.”
The petition signatories unequivocally declare that the abduction and imprisonment of children is a war crime and a profound moral injustice against humanity as a whole. Their message concludes with a resounding demand: "Let The Children Go."
This unprecedented petition has been presented by Professor Daniel Kahneman, representing the Nobel laureates, and Alana Zeitchik and Liam Lindsay, relatives of abducted 3 year old twins Emma and Julie and 5 year old Amelia, representing the families of the kidnapped children.
Notably, this petition is supported by 86 of the world's foremost scientists and thinkers, including Nobel Laureates such as Shirin Ebadi, Nobel Laureate in Peace 2003; Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, Nobel Laureate in Peace 2011; Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Laureate in Economics 2002; Aaron Ciechanover, Nobel Laureate in Chemistry 2004; Patrick Modiano, Nobel Laureate in Literature 2014; Jose Ramos-Horta, Nobel Laureate in Peace 1996; Olga Tokarczuk, Nobel Laureate in Literature 2018, among others. A full list of the signatories is attached as part of the petition.
These terrorist are conducting psychological war fare with the world with their attacks to Israel . I blame this all on Obama for giving them billions and also during his administration, Obama secretly snuck in thousands of Palestinians and other groups in the United States and dispersed them all over our towns and cities. This is the guy that Alan Dershowitz voted for. How did he not know of Obama's back ground ? This question I would like to ask Alan.
sad part is that Alan does not respond to our comments.
No he will not respond because after voting for Obama he has lost legitimacy and has nothing to say - he has been part of the problem created by Jewish "inellectuals" in America that has not been of service to Jews themselves. Why should alliance from non-Jews be expected in the circumstance.
Alan, of course has hit a home run. However, what is happening is not rational. We should all realize that is happening here is what the Islamist call tawqa. This term as stated in the Koran advises all Moslems to lie to the infidel when they so desire. Of course, our fake MSM buys into it. These are the same folks who claimed that the Mossad was responsible for 9/11. The Arab world, for years has claimed that Jews are the one who infected Arabs with AIDs. We have also been told that Iran has no homosexuals. Palestinians refused to take the COVID vaccine from Israel, because they believed that Israel intended to poison them.
There is plenty of evidence for Hamas' responsibility for this tragedy, there is no doubt. As soon as it happened however, they jumped on the propaganda machine and blamed Israel, and the mainstream media bought it. That's the world we live in.
The corporate media's ravenous appetite to condemn anything Israeli/Jew blunts my ability to believe that the media serves anything useful. Trump was right again, the media is the enemy of the people, especially the Jews.
What do you do with 2M genocidal people? Their Arab neighbors can't afford to take them in.
Egypt would fall to the Muslim Brotherhood. Saudia Arabia could, but they won't. Libya is a failed state already. Jordan faced a Palestinian coup attempt 30 years ago. Syria is also a failed state. Lebanon's broke, and 2M new Muslims would swamp its delicate political balancing act.
So what do you do with 2M genocidal people? Real question.
This question relates to what happened to the Arab spring - the entire region of Arab states is not democratic and wants to keep it that way by fomenting the genocidal culture endlessly as an ongoing industry to keep that the focus rather than how the Arab states fail their own people. They quashed the Arab spring and seek to keep this conflict going forever is the truth. Why would Egypt's president ask Egyptians to go on a "day of rage" for example? What normal government does that? It is a criminal one that exhorts people in that manner. So the question is broader - what to do with millions more not just Gazans but Arabs in all non-democratic countries who will continue to remain a threat to Israel and the world (even though antisemites do not admit that).
"What normal government does that?"
One that's not rooted in our tradition of Judeo-Christian, Enlightenment moral norms. And most of the people on the planet are not. Ideas have consequences.
Which is why democracy isn't the answer. Hold a 100% fair election in Egypt tomorrow and the Muslim Brotherhood would sweep the Egyptian Parliament. What you really mean is that you want Western style liberalism in a place that has no philosophical tradition that can bring it about. We tried that theory under George W Bush and got the Arab Spring.
So wat do you do? Wall off the genocidal part of the world and let it kill itself? Israel tried that with the Iron Dome and the Wall. Doesn't work. Kill everyone who wants you dead? That's the option they're pursuing now, and as much as I hate to say it, it's hard to find an alternative.
How do you win? Defeat your enemy. Drive him off his land. Kill anyone who remains. And screw what happens to the rest. It sounds cold, but this is literally War 101. The desert Muslims know this. We have forgotten it or are unwilling to face it.
I would take your stance further to include elements in western society that reject enlightened moral norms as we can see such throngs of people protesting in the streets of western jurisdictions - basically antisemites. So many segments of humanity all over the world are not democratic, are antisemitic, and maintain a theocratic murderous bent that many purport we need to "work with". But that is impossible - it is like arguing with a crazy person - there is no rationality or truth only dogma and lies. Hence Israel and other western countries that institutionally wish to sustain enlightened norms irrespective of segments within societies rejecting them, must be hyper vigilant and not accept those who are not enlightened in the name of free expression - there is no freedom to express hate and exhort to commit murder. We do need to defend enlightenment by acting decisively to exterminate haters as much as possible since they are attacking non-antisemitic and enlightened segments of society ruthlessly and murderously - without crushing it in defence will lead to the destruction normal humanity. There needs to be an express admission that there is an actual dangerous enemy among us and around us interested in maintaining base hate, violence and corruption in the name of political power and at the expense of humanity. This is the dynamic in the Arab world (among others) that is never transparently laid out.
Do Western countries actually want to uphold Enlightenment ideas? I'm honestly not sure I do. Don't get me wrong, while my preference is for a broadly tolerant, liberal society built on Judeo-Christian philosophy, I believe Patrick Deneen (Why Liberalism Failed) is right. The value-neutral, secular state posited by Locke and Mill and Rawls seeds its own destruction by preventing to collective transmission or acknowledgement of any form of shared cultural values. Western, Enlightenment liberal society only appeared stable because of 1700 years of shared Christian cultural inertia, which we've now run down.
I don't know the answer, but I do think RR Reno is correct: the world of "strong gods" is returning. Either we will find collective values that we are willing to defend with religious conviction, or we will be conquered by those who do. Unfortunately, I suspect theocracy in some form is the only truly stable governmental system. The neutral, liberal state was always an illusion. I don't like that. But my preferences don't change its veracity.
I think this hypothesis needs some correction - it is not true there is prevention of transmission of shared cultural values in western society, to the contrary we embrace the freedom to do so pursuant to the individual's conscience, not enforced by religious police where there is supposed transmission of religious/cultural homogeneity - it is a falsehood. That is the beauty of the secular state that upholds religious/cultural personal freedom. Everyone knows that is the way human rights are upheld, not through coerced cultural uniformity. That is why we cherish diversity. Whose G-d is it that will prevail per your view? It is a pathetic situation where we succumb to someone's G-d by force. We need to uphold our secular humanist values and allow people to choose for themselves their faith provided they practice respectfully without spewing hate towards those whose practice is different or do not practice any faith.
This is too far to the right (on the screen, not politically) to get into a serious discussion of this. I suggest highly that you read Deneen's book Why Liberalism Failed. Don't read Regime Change; the first book is better.
Short form: "shared cultural values" are impossible in any society that holds up "individual conscience" as its highest good. If the right each individual to do as he desires (absent hurting someone else) is the highest good, all other cultural values and moral norms must take second place. And that means they must fall, since any other moral norm could conflict with my (or someone else's) right of personal autonomy and conscience. That's condensing the entire book into 1 paragraph though.
As I said, I don't like this conclusion, but I don't see any way around it.
Sorry but I still do not think you are getting it right, despite the author's argument, there is nothing to cause religious plurality to fail in a secular state. That is because we are tolerant of other faiths and non-believers. That is diversity and that is strength. I do not know where you have been for the last while but diversity is a quite valued in western societies. It is the enforced homogeneous states that have massive problems keeping themselves together because they are non-free thinking police states which is the only way to keep that facade of perfect harmony going. You require massive repression of populations to maintain the illusion.
There is a paradox of diversity which mirrors the paradox of tolerance. How can a society survive in the face of an intolerant ideology with a fanatical drive to conquer? It can only work when all parties agree to live and let live, no matter how profound the disagreement, as happened following the Peace of Westphalia which ended the brutal religious wars which tore Europe apart in the 17th century. The Communists and the Nazis had no respect for such an ethos of toleration, and neither does Islam.
Obama, Dershowitz's hero, has now written a lengthy missive on the current situation, since we know how great he handled things so we need to listen to him as Dershowitz does. Obama included pearls of wisdom such as:
“Even as we support Israel, we should also be clear that how Israel prosecutes this fight against Hamas matters. In particular, it matters — as President Biden has repeatedly emphasized — that Israel’s military strategy abides by international law, including those laws that seek to avoid, to every extent possible, the death or suffering of civilian populations.”
“The Israeli government’s decision to cut off food, water and electricity to a captive civilian population (in Gaza) threatens not only to worsen a growing humanitarian crisis; it could further harden Palestinian attitudes for generations, erode global support for Israel, play into the hands of Israel’s enemies, and undermine long-term efforts to achieve peace and stability in the region.”
Thank G-d for Obama - where would Israel and Dershowitz be without him. I just wonder why Hamas is not held to the same standard? I guess I do not have the intelligence to understand the deep thinking here. Maybe Dershowitz can shed some light on that and how Hamas's actions against Israelis should not similarly harden Israeli and Jewish opinion. But Dershowitz will remain silent.
Where is Dershowitz's favourite Barak Obama on this list? Nowhere to be found. Dershowitz voted for him and continues to be happy with his decision the first time he voted for him. Shame for helping create this monster.
Israel ישראל 🇮🇱 reposted
Israel Foreign Ministry
@IsraelMFA
86 Nobel laureates have taken a stand, submitting a heartfelt petition addressed to the
@UN
Secretary-General
@antonioguterres
and, by extension, leaders of nations across the globe. This petition conveys a profound moral imperative: the immediate release of the kidnapped children in Gaza.
The laureates express a poignant message: “Throughout the annals of human history, wars have unfolded, but humanity has consistently drawn the line between acts of war and war crimes. No war should ever condone mass atrocities. No war normalize acts of rape and torture. Never will war permit the captivity of innocent young children in the throes of hellish confinement.”
Adding to their voice, they emphasize, “during the attack, Hamas kidnapped hundreds of Israeli soldiers and
civilians, including children aged between 6 months and 18 years. Children should never
be regarded as pawns in the theater of war.”
The Nobel laureates are united in their moral demand for the immediate release of these kidnapped children. They assert, “The soul of a child differs from that of an adult. It is our sacred duty to protect the innocent and shield the vulnerable. It is our sacred duty to save our children. The distressing images and words we witness today evoke memories of darker times, times that we, humanity as a collective, had hoped to leave behind.”
The petition signatories unequivocally declare that the abduction and imprisonment of children is a war crime and a profound moral injustice against humanity as a whole. Their message concludes with a resounding demand: "Let The Children Go."
This unprecedented petition has been presented by Professor Daniel Kahneman, representing the Nobel laureates, and Alana Zeitchik and Liam Lindsay, relatives of abducted 3 year old twins Emma and Julie and 5 year old Amelia, representing the families of the kidnapped children.
Notably, this petition is supported by 86 of the world's foremost scientists and thinkers, including Nobel Laureates such as Shirin Ebadi, Nobel Laureate in Peace 2003; Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, Nobel Laureate in Peace 2011; Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Laureate in Economics 2002; Aaron Ciechanover, Nobel Laureate in Chemistry 2004; Patrick Modiano, Nobel Laureate in Literature 2014; Jose Ramos-Horta, Nobel Laureate in Peace 1996; Olga Tokarczuk, Nobel Laureate in Literature 2018, among others. A full list of the signatories is attached as part of the petition.
אלי כהן | Eli Cohen
10:58 AM · Oct 21, 2023
·
309.6K
Views
These terrorist are conducting psychological war fare with the world with their attacks to Israel . I blame this all on Obama for giving them billions and also during his administration, Obama secretly snuck in thousands of Palestinians and other groups in the United States and dispersed them all over our towns and cities. This is the guy that Alan Dershowitz voted for. How did he not know of Obama's back ground ? This question I would like to ask Alan.
sad part is that Alan does not respond to our comments.
No he will not respond because after voting for Obama he has lost legitimacy and has nothing to say - he has been part of the problem created by Jewish "inellectuals" in America that has not been of service to Jews themselves. Why should alliance from non-Jews be expected in the circumstance.
Alan, of course has hit a home run. However, what is happening is not rational. We should all realize that is happening here is what the Islamist call tawqa. This term as stated in the Koran advises all Moslems to lie to the infidel when they so desire. Of course, our fake MSM buys into it. These are the same folks who claimed that the Mossad was responsible for 9/11. The Arab world, for years has claimed that Jews are the one who infected Arabs with AIDs. We have also been told that Iran has no homosexuals. Palestinians refused to take the COVID vaccine from Israel, because they believed that Israel intended to poison them.